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23 April 2005 @ 22:39
Gallifrey Go BOOM  
So not_vacillating has the pokey-stick out.

I'm gonna state up front that my knowledge of canon is limited to the aired episodes. I know bugger-all about fanon sources such as the novels or audio adventures. So this is based on my (somewhat limited by time and fuzzy recollection) knowledge of the series alone (which includes most of Three, all of Four, most of Five, parts of Six, vague rumours about Seven, and Eight on video tape somewhere in my basement).

Gallifrey go BOOM (and should stay went BOOM)Collapse )
Tags: ,
mood: quixoticquixotic
Sayraaryas_zehral on 24th April 2005 17:40 (UTC)
You know, I was just having a conversation that about the Doctor and Rose's relation and the destruction of Gallifrey last night that basically amounted to what you've just said. I'm very limited in terms of what I know about Dr Who in that I remember watching as a kid but have since forgotten basically everything I saw (I was nine in 89).

But no, am fascinated by the Time War and him being the last. I honestly think that if it wasn't for the vulnerable angsty-ness (yes am making up terms here), this would be something that was fun to watch but that I didn't much care about. As it is... I'm feeling kinda like when I first discovered Buffy ('98) and went completely obsessive exceedingly quickly.

To me the core of the Rose, Doctor relationship is that she is all he has and with no homeworld floating there in the background he needs to have something. Hence the mean making her choose and the swings in mood etc. He's chosen to have her around and now that he's started caring he probably would be devestated if she decided not to go with him. And by the way not meaning this in a shippy way, platonic friendships can be passionate and needy too. Of course the shipper in me does squee at shippy scenes or lines. *grin*

HawkMoth: plotisgoodhawkmoth on 24th April 2005 18:52 (UTC)
OK, reading this first thing this morning almost made me late for church...

It's utterly brilliant and makes lots of sense. I think there's a novel due out next month that may include the story of the Time War.

Onto the thought of "why Rose?": You're absolutely right that she challenges, him in a way few (if any) companions have done before, basically because she's so of her time (and of course the time these are being made). Wasn't Sarah Jane meant to be the "modern/independent/not-helpless" career girl, before she was mellowed into the more familiar companion role? Tegan's contrary nature was almost always too strident and belligerent. Nyssa may have been close to the Doctor's intellectual equal (like Susan and Zoe) but there was always the surrogate father/daughter thing there to keep them from connecting on any other (non-romantic) level.

I guess Peri (*shudder*) and Doctor Six came closest to be true travelling companions.

If we call the movie canon, then that counts as the maybe only other time the Doctor invited someone to travel with him, and I think it's a pity Grace said no.

And again you're right, this is a very vulnerable Doctor now, and while he may comprehend how alone he is, I don't know if he really accepts how lonely he is.
teh nos'nostalgia_lj on 24th April 2005 20:37 (UTC)
Wasn't Sarah Jane meant to be the "modern/independent/not-helpless" career girl, before she was mellowed into the more familiar companion role?

She was *so* helped by Harry being useless. Bwah! Cos, really, companions need to ask the stupid questions and fall over, so as to pad it out to six episodes.

Tegan's contrary nature was almost always too strident and belligerent. Nyssa may have been close to the Doctor's intellectual equal (like Susan and Zoe) but there was always the surrogate father/daughter thing there to keep them from connecting on any other (non-romantic) level.

I always think it's Significant that Five never chose his companions, and got landed with people Four had rounded up out of spite.

I guess Peri (*shudder*) and Doctor Six came closest to be true travelling companions.

Yes, omg! Peri and Five... didn't work so well, really. She'd've run rings round him. And Six *really* needed someone to question all the shit he pulled.

(no subject) - hawkmoth on 25th April 2005 01:44 (UTC) (Expand)
(no subject) - nostalgia_lj on 25th April 2005 02:04 (UTC) (Expand)
Samantha Wilkinsonsamantha2074 on 24th April 2005 20:28 (UTC)
It's established in "Rose" that Rose is in many ways an adult among children. Jackie turns Rose's ordeal into something all about her, including making disparaging comments about how the ordeal has "aged her--skin like an old Bible."

Yeah, but to be fair, Jackie wouldn't be wallowing in the drama if Rose weren't there, safe and sound. Because Rose is okay and doesn't seem visibly distraught, Jackie feels free to enjoy some attention and gossip. I can bet you, that during the year Rose was gone, this was not how she was acting. I agree that Rose was the adult in the household, but I quite like Jackie, and believe she genuinely loves and cares about her daughter.

I think it's fair to say that, while incarnations of he past wouldn't have hesitated to use the anti-plastic the moment the threat was identified, this incarnation held out hope that the situation could be resolved without destroying the Consciousness.

I disagree. I can't see any of the Doctors, except perhaps the first, destroying the Nestene Consciousness without trying other ways first. Three was always trying to keep the Brigadier from blowing up other species, most notably the Silurians. Four refused to prevent the Daleks from being created. Five couldn't bring himself to shoot Davros. There's plenty of examples of the Doctor only using destruction as a last resort.

Even in exile, the possibility still existed that Gallifrey could change. That the Doctor could be a force of change for his people. That he could have a home to go back to that was not the home he left--that he chose to leave, and that he was barred from returning to. That possibility meant that there was hope. Even if it was a hope he wasn't aware he held.

It's hard for me to imagine that someone who seems to have always held such contempt for the idea of living your life out on one planet would secretly cherish the hope of returning to his own. He had chances to do so, but ran away. The Doctor has always avoided developing ties to one place, following up on the messes he creates, or taking on responsibilities. If he adopts a home, then he becomes part of a community, then he has responsibilites, then other people begin to rely on him. He seems to prefer flitting about, never having to know about the consequences of his actions or being accountable to anyone. Maybe someday this will change, but I don't think it's happened yet.

Nonetheles, I think this is an interesting and thoughtful essay.
ljc: TARDIS callingtaraljc on 29th April 2005 03:48 (UTC)
I adored Jackie in the 2-parter, and I agree 100% that her self-preoccupation was based on the fact that Rose was a-okay. But the dynamics of their relationship--even in the 2-parter--still felt a lot of ways like Rose is the one having to be mature for the both of them. It doesn't mean Jackie doesn't lvoe ehr daughter--she does. But it does mean that Jackie isn't the most grown-up grouwn-up around. After all, she could have gotten a proper job, studied for exams, and kicked out a deadbeat boyfriend before, rather than offering to try and keep Rose home. Jackie could have, but chose not to, while Rose regretted leaving school, did want a betetr job, and a better life.

I don't think the Doctor did ever seriously consider returning to Gallifrey. But he took Gallifrey's existance for granted. Even if he'd never gone back ever, the possibility that he could if he'd wanted to is what he lost--along with billions of lives, of course.

Maybe someday this will change, but I don't think it's happened yet.

Whereas I think we're seeing it now, bit by bit. I can very much see him thinking "I've got all the time in the world" and then being truly scarred when that clock stopped. It's forcing him to grow up a bit as well, which is what I think we're seeing in the new series. He's not as carefree about galavanting about space/time as he was, and I'm curious to see how that plays out. I do think the repition of "Can you keep my daughter safe?" and the question never being answered is very significant.
Cheryl: not so lonelysatine79 on 24th April 2005 20:55 (UTC)
Bravo!! That was absolutely fantastic ;) I've added this to my memories.
tonicollinstonicollins on 25th April 2005 00:41 (UTC)
Wonderful essay; cat too heavy on arms to type for long but I do have one question: Whatever happened to the Master?
R.J. Anderson: Ninth Doctor Grieverj_anderson on 25th April 2005 02:20 (UTC)
Fabulous, love it, great stuff here, I'm too tired to say anything intelligent in addition to it, except --

Was I the only one who was totally going "Mickey/Jackie OTP!!!" by the end of the episode? I mean, seriously.
Gaspodegaspode on 25th April 2005 09:33 (UTC)
And the "Big Bad wolf references" ? (Both from the Gelf and the graffiti on the Tardis)

To me they hint the doctor may have had more than a little to do with both the War and Gallifrey's destruction ...

But thats just me
pbristow on 25th April 2005 19:32 (UTC)
Yep, that's my theory.

(Oh, and it's "Gelth", by the way. =:o} )
Rhirhipowered on 25th April 2005 13:29 (UTC)
Great essay. Totally can see where you're coming from.
teh nos'nostalgia_lj on 25th April 2005 18:04 (UTC)
I watched this and I thought of you...

Curse Of Fenric:

"Do you have any family yourself?"
"I don't know."
"Oh, I'm sorry. It's the war, isn't it? Must be terrible not knowing."

Cos, you have that Doctor and Families thing you ponder, yes?
Just Jennelfgirljen on 25th April 2005 20:22 (UTC)
Rambling along.....
This is one kick ass essay.
JackieKjono: kurt spock picutejackiekjono on 26th April 2005 17:10 (UTC)
I certainly hope that when they get around to explaining the time war, they don't forget about Susan. It's one little bit of canon they never go back to, really - that he has this family member out there (unless they did it with Sylvester McCoy. I missed those.) I think that permanently losing Susan would be just as bad as losing Gallifrey. Losing both at the same time - eeek.

Also - is it just me or does Rose look like a blonde version of Carol Ann Ford?
gigletgiglet on 29th April 2005 03:14 (UTC)
Oh nicely put!

I agree with you that grief is a big theme and motivator in the new series, and that it changes the Doctor/companion dynamic a lot.

I think this Doctor is also a lot darker. He *fought* in a war, presumably with his people, and (I'm sure) for his people, and he lost. I think that's going to be important in understanding him as the series goes on.
Worrals: Bad Wolflivii on 4th May 2005 22:04 (UTC)
This is completely brilliant, thanks for writing it. So many things I'd been thinking about but hadn't been able to put into words properly.

I've linked it on my journal, hope you don't mind, but all Who fans should see this.
ljc: TARDIS callingtaraljc on 16th June 2005 16:27 (UTC)
..and of course, now I feel like a git, for not realiseing you've seen this essay.


Can we blame it on the fact that I haven't had any coffee yet today?
(no subject) - livii on 16th June 2005 17:17 (UTC) (Expand)
Corgi, Hound of the Internet: Comics - Wonder Womansff_corgi on 20th February 2006 14:21 (UTC)
Pointed here by lizbee who took pity on someone on the wrong side of various Ponds who will neverever be able to get caught up, whah.

[inhales] That being said, since I can't discuss the Doctorish parts with any intelligence at all, I thought I'd help backfill about the Super-pets. Goddess save us from the leftovers of the '50s.

Krypto and Beppo were the two 'real' Kryptonians, and O I winced when I typed that. Streaky was Supergirl's Terran cat exposed to a fiddled-with sample of kryptonite which gave him temporary and renewable superpowers, but still made Kara sick as if it were green.

Believe it or not, the horse is a Greek centaur under a curse and not even vaguely Kryptonian, except his intermittent full-human form was Supergirl's boyfriend. And we think fandom comes up with tortuous and kinky romances.

Here is a hilarious review of a story that's that period's excess at it's finest, including the 'Legion of Super-Pets'. Makes one glad for the Crisis on Infinite Earths, even if they managed to screw things up badly after that all over again....