taraljc: I think there's some wide-spread confusi

ljc (

taraljc) wrote,
@ 2005-07-23 14:51:00

Entry tags:

fanfic, who, whofic, writing tips

I think there's some wide-spread confusion about things like how to punctuate dialogue, and what ellipsis are for, and how to format fiction for reading on-line. So I decided to come up with a quick-and-dirty guide. There are I'm sure a hundred of these--both fannish and just Chicago Style Guide clones floating about, but I wanted something (I could easily locate) to point people to when the occasion arose...

How to Make Your Beta Reader / Copy Editor / Friendly Neighbourhood Archivist Happier

Punctuate dialogue correctly.
Punctuation (periods, exclamation points, question marks, commas, and ellipses) goes inside the quotation marks. Use commas correctly.

Correct: "It's bigger on the inside," she said.

Incorrect: "Of course it is." Said the Doctor.

Corrected example: "Of course it is," said the Doctor.

Use a period if dialogue is a complete sentence, and is followed by another complete sentence.

Correct: "I like it." Rose patted the TARDIS console affectionately. "Very flash."

Incorrect: "She's a very flash time ship," the Doctor threw two switches, then grabbed the console as the ship listed drunkenly to one side.

Corrected example: "She's a very flash time ship." The Doctor threw two switches, then grabbed the console as the ship listed drunkenly to one side.

However, use commas if dialogue is split into two parts by the dialogue tag, and always begin the second part of the quotation with a lower case letter.

Incorrect: "She's a very flash time ship," the Doctor threw two switches. "that almost always gets me to exactly where I ask her to go. Mostly."

Corrected example: "She's a very flash time ship," the Doctor said as he threw two switches, "that almost always gets me to exactly where I ask her to go. Mostly."

Correct: "When you say 'mostly,'" Rose began, "you mean, what? 99% of the time?"

Incorrect: "Well, there's where you want to go," The Doctor grinned, "And then there's where you need to be."

Incorrect: "Well, there's where you want to go," the Doctor said with a grin, "and then there's where you need to be."

Proper nouns (names, titles, words used as proper nouns) should be capitalised. Do not capitalise the noun if it's not used as a proper noun.

Correct: "Look, Mum means well," Rose said.

Incorrect: "Yeah, sure. Your Mum always means well..."

Corrected example: "Yeah, sure. Your mum always means well..."

Correct: "Would you like to dance, Captain?"

Incorrect: "It's tradition. A Captain always goes down on--sorry, with his ship."

Corrected example: "It's tradition. A captain always goes down on--sorry, with his ship."

When addressing a person, use a comma after his or her name. When a direct address is implied, but a specific name not used, use a comma.

Correct: "Rose, would you please hand me the mallet?"

Incorrect: "You know Doctor I wish you wouldn't hit the TARDIS quite so hard."

Corrected example: "You know, Doctor, I wish you wouldn't hit the TARDIS quite so hard."

Use a comma when using "Yes" or "No" in dialogue.

Correct: "No, sir, I'm afraid there's no 'Doctor' or 'Rose Tyler' on our guest list."

Correct: "Yes, there is. Honest. See what it says right here? 'The Doctor, plus one.'"

Incorrect: "No you can't just walk out into 1860 Venice wearing jeans and a tee-shirt."

Corrected example: "No, you can't just walk out into 1860 Venice wearing jeans and a tee-shirt."

Use a comma after a mild interjection, such as oh or well.

Correct: "Well, when you put it that way, I suppose 'clothing optional sun-bathing' does sound a bit dangerous."

Incorrect: "Oh I don't think that will be a problem."

Corrected example: "Oh, I don't think that will be a problem."

Ellipses (three periods) are used to indicated ommitted text, an interruption or hesitation.

An ellipsis is used without a full-stop at the end if the sentence is incomplete, or at the beginning (with the first word lower case) is picked up by a 2nd speaker.

Correct: "That doesn't sound..."

Correct: "...like a good idea?"

An ellipsis followed by a full-stop (four periods) are used if the ellipsis is at the end of a complete sentence.

Correct: "Sometimes, things just don't work out the way you expect them to.... Life's funny that way."

Avoid using epithets if possible (terms used as a descriptive substitute for the name or title of a person)

i.e. "the blonde" or "the young girl" or "the 900 year old Time Lord" or what have you. These people have names. Use them. Our brains are wired to read names (and personal pronouns) and not be bothered by them all that much. Like "said," it's a wonderful invisible thing that keeps you from grinding to a screeching halt in the middle of the narrative cos you're wincing and laughing and IMing your best pal to say "OMG I just went 4 entire pages where Captain Jack was called 'the dashing younger man with dark wavy hair and dimples.' You have to READ THIS!" and not, may I add, in a good way.

Paragraph text for on-line (versus print) reading.

This means double spacing between paragraphs, as opposed to indenting. Do not cut and paste from Microsoft Word using tabs. You will end up with one giant paragraph which no-one can read, therefore it's much more likely no-one will actually bother to read your beautiful fabulous opus. Cos it's just too difficult to decipher for our ape-like, clay-footed human selves.

No, really. I'm not kidding.

Text must be paragraphed, in order for human beings to read it easily. So please, paragraph. Readers will love you for it.

Separate sections with three asterixes (* * *)

...or at the very least, use the same device each time, so archivists can format your story for archiving using search-and-replace, rather than having to replace each and every one one at a time cos you decided holding down the shift key and hitting 8 a random number of times was the way to go about it.

(Post a new comment)

onetimeoffer
2005-07-23 08:06 pm UTC (link)

"She's a very flash time ship," the Doctor threw two switches, then grabbed the console as the ship listed drunkenly to one side.

Would you say that this could be made correct if the Doctor's dialogue continued after the narration, like "She's a very flash time ship," the Doctor threw two switches, then grabbed the console as the ship listed drunkenly to one side, "but sometimes she needs a little motivation to work properly."

Or would you still put a period after the first bit of dialogue, make the narration a separate sentence, and make the second bit of dialogue a separate sentence? I tried it both ways, and neither one looks completely right, but I can't decide which one is the lesser of two evils.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	gwynnega 2005-07-23 08:09 pm UTC (link)
	Or would you still put a period after the first bit of dialogue, make the narration a separate sentence, and make the second bit of dialogue a separate sentence? Yes, this is the way to do it. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	onetimeoffer 2005-07-23 08:10 pm UTC (link)
	Even if the second bit of dialogue starts with "but"? I think that's what threw me off a bit. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	gwynnega 2005-07-23 08:15 pm UTC (link)
	I guess it's more of a style thing. I would still use periods, because I think "the Doctor threw two switches" after a comma would be a little clunky. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

onetimeoffer
2005-07-23 08:19 pm UTC (link)

Yeah, you're right, it looks better broken up into individual sentences, if only because "the doctor threw two switches, then grabbed the console as the ship listed drunkenly to one side" seems like an awfully long interjection in the middle of a sentence. If it was just one or the other, it might work as one sentence, depending on who's editing the thing, too, since a lot of times vague calls like this are really up to the editor, in a "this looks better" kind of way.

(Reply to this)(Parent)

	budclare 2005-07-23 08:20 pm UTC (link)
	To me, the issue in this case isn't the dialogue. It just seems really odd to put such a long sentence in the middle of a sentence, and that particular sentence would have to be revised a bit to make it work regardless. With a short narrative bit, it works fine. "That's not a tree," he said, "but you still owe me fifty bucks." ...hello, gibberish. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	onetimeoffer 2005-07-23 08:22 pm UTC (link)
	Well, you seem to have said what I was trying to say in a much more concise way. Which, you know, is good. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	budclare 2005-07-23 08:27 pm UTC (link)
	Concise gibberish. I'm very proud. :) (Reply to this)(Parent)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:43 pm UTC (link)
	yes, using the previous example to build on was perhaps unwise of me... facepalms (Reply to this)(Parent)

pbristow
2005-07-24 11:50 am UTC (link)

Here's my perspective. In the instance you've constructed, the sequence events appears to be:

1. The Doctor says something, and operates the controls.
2. The TARDIS *unexpectedly* lurches, effectively undermining what the Doctor has just said.
3. The Doctor decides to cover his embarassment by extending the original sentence with a caveat.

And here's how I would render that:

"She's a very flash time ship."
The Doctor threw two switches, then grabbed the console as the ship listed drunkenly to one side.
"...But sometimes she needs a little motivation to work properly."

I.e. not only sing three separate sentences, but three separate paragraphs, emphasising the broken-up sequence of events.

On the other hand, if that's not the intention, and the author just wants to show in a dynamic way that the Doctor is struggling to control the TARDIS while he's talking, then try this:

"She's a very flash time ship - " (the Doctor threw two switches, then grabbed the console as the ship listed drunkenly to one side) " - but sometimes she needs a little motivation to work properly."

The dashes show that the speech is being interrupted temporarily by actual events, rather than just be the author's choice of sentence structure. (In "proper" publishing these would be long dashes, not hyphens, but you can get roughly the same visual effect using a hyphen with spaces either side of it. Some WP packages will recognise this trick and convert the hyphen character into a long dash.)

The parentheses (brackets) are there to show that the details of the action aren't really important. What that middles section is really telling you is "during this speech the Doctor is fighting with the controls", but it in a more exciting style than just adding "As the Doctor said this, he was fighting with controls" after the speech. =:o}

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	pbristow 2005-07-24 11:51 am UTC (link)
	"In the instance you've constructed" Sorry, by "you" I mean mylildementor. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:11 pm UTC (link)
	good point--I shall add that example, cos yeah, commas if the dialogue is split in two but is all still the same sentence. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	ionlylurkhere 2005-07-23 08:06 pm UTC (link)
	That first one I see a lot more often after sentences ending in question and exclamation marks. I think (at least some version of) Word Autocorrect it wrong, because it doesn't have a rule to pick up on the fact that the sentence that's just finished (and thus Needs A Capital For The Next Word, OMG, Or The Paperclip Will Cry At The Wrongness) inside direct speech. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:12 pm UTC (link)
	First thing I do, when I load up Word, is disable 99% of the Auto Correct features. grr. Smart Quotes and special characters (goddam Word for turning three periods into an special character) are also the bane of my existance. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	budclare 2005-07-23 08:21 pm UTC (link)
	Maybe you should include directions for turning off the autocrap. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	cschick 2005-07-23 09:54 pm UTC (link)
	With pictures? http://fluky.gossamer.org/local/msword97.html The autocrap doesn't need to be turned off in Word 2002/XP, if you know how to save correctly: http://fluky.gossamer.org/local/mswordxp.html (Reply to this)(Parent)

	elen_ancalima 2005-07-23 08:09 pm UTC (link)
	This looks great - thanks for sharing! I will add it to my memories right away. This reminds me of a question I've had for some time - maybe you know the answer. Which of the following is correct? "How are you?" she asked. or "How are you?" She asked. I think the first version is the correct one, but I've seen others use the second version as well. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:36 pm UTC (link)
	1st, all the way. You've prolly seen 2nd version only where Word's autocorrect feature capitalised the S by mistake... (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	elen_ancalima 2005-07-23 09:16 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks a lot! (Reply to this)(Parent)

	mtgat 2005-07-23 08:10 pm UTC (link)
	Note that fanfiction.net eats asterixes, so when archiving stories there, another demarcation is going to be necessary. (Reply to this)(Thread)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:44 pm UTC (link)
	crap. I forgot about that. That's new. Crap. (Reply to this)(Parent)

katemonkey
2005-07-23 08:21 pm UTC (link)

I tend to suggest double-spacing between paragraphs, then quadruple spacing between sections, so you get something like:

"And so," the Doctor said cheerfully. "I've saved the day, everyone's happy, and--"

"Doctor, look out!" Rose shouted, tackling him just as a giant winged creature swooped down to grab him.

The creature shrieked in anger as it missed its prey, talons almost grazing the leather of his jacket. The Doctor, somewhat ruffled by the incident, looked up. "That's unexpected."

This is just what I do, in personal archiving and larger archiving.

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:42 pm UTC (link)
	Except I think it would be: "And so," the Doctor said cheerfully, "I've... cos it's all still the same sentence... Now Im confusing myself. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	katemonkey 2005-07-23 08:46 pm UTC (link)
	I had wondered when I was half-assedly coming up with it. You win! (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:53 pm UTC (link)
	Yay! I like winning! It's every so much better than losing. (Reply to this)(Parent)

pinkdormouse
2005-07-23 08:24 pm UTC (link)

The one that I'm debating at the moment is certain uses of proper nouns. If someone is using the noun by which they would address the person, but including a possessive to distinguish the person from any other relative, should it have a capital letter. thinking here of Imogen, who's from Sheffield and thus likely to say 'my Mum' or James who would probably thinks of Richard's grandmother as 'Gran', but says 'your Gran' when talking to Richard to avoid any implication that they're discussing one of James' relatives.

And I can never remember whether 'sir' needs to be capitalised when Richard is addressing his father.

Gina

(Reply to this)(Thread)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:35 pm UTC (link)
	it would be "your gran" the same way it would be "my father" because in those cases, it's not being used as a proper noun (i.e. name, or in palce of a name, like Dad, or Granny). I think forms of address like sir, madam, ma'am, or miss aren't ever capitalised. Unless it's part of a formal address, like Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, or Miss Tyler. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	pinkdormouse 2005-07-23 08:44 pm UTC (link)
	But Gran is what they call her. Or am I just too used to the Sheffield cnvention of using 'my', 'your', his, etc in front of names to distinguish between individuals with the same name? 'Our Tracy' or 'Rita's Tracy' for my cousin, as opposed to 'that Tracy down the chip-shop' who is unrelated to all of us. Gina (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:48 pm UTC (link)
	oh! Hmmm... that might come down to a dialect thing dialect being tricksy and not always gramatically correct). I'm not sure how you'd capitalise the posessive pronoun with the Name/Proper Noun in that case. I think the "my" would stay lowercase, and "Gran" would stay uppercase, you're right. (Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	pinkdormouse 2005-07-23 09:05 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks. It's just my characters being annoying. They do that a lot. Gina (Reply to this)(Parent)

pbristow
2005-07-24 11:57 am UTC (link)

Basically, it comes down to the intention of the speaker.

"Your gran" is correct if they're identifying the lady in terms of the family relationship, i.e. as a shortened form of "grandmother".

"Your Gran" is correct if they're identifying the lady by her "nickname" of Gran, and just wanting to distinguish "the person called Gran who's part of your family, as opposed to the person called Gran who's part of mine."

(Reply to this)(Parent)(Thread)

	pinkdormouse 2005-07-24 03:21 pm UTC (link)
	Yeah, that's what I've been doing. Thanks for the reassurance. Gina (Reply to this)(Parent)

	monanotlisa 2005-07-23 08:32 pm UTC (link)
	THANK YOU! English punctuation was always a bit of a mystery to me... (Reply to this)(Thread)

	taraljc 2005-07-23 08:49 pm UTC (link)
	it's a mystery to me, too. Mainly cos they teach tecnhical writing in schools, but very few bother to teach you how to properly write dialogue in fiction. (Reply to this)(Parent)

	rawles 2005-07-23 11:34 pm UTC (link)
	Gah. This needs to be spread around the universe. I've lost count of the number of times people have had me read their fiction, and I've had to explain to them how to properly punctuate dialogue. (Reply to this)

	hawkmoth 2005-07-24 12:23 am UTC (link)
	Huh. I don't often use Word, so I didn't know it tends to auto-correct the "don't capitalize pronouns" thing in dialogue. Maybe that's why I see the mistake so often in Firefly fiction. But it seems so many people really have no clue how to punctuate dialogue correctly, and it drives me crazy! So I worship and adore you for posting this! (Reply to this)

	tundraeternal 2005-07-24 04:54 am UTC (link)
	Wow, this is totally faboo. I'm linking from my recs/links list in huge dayglow letters. (Reply to this)

	pbristow 2005-07-24 12:01 pm UTC (link)
	Thanks for doing this! Like all rules, there will be cases where they don't quite apply, or where for styslitic reasons you might want to break them, but fanfic writing would improve immeasurably if authors would learn to walk before they try to play dodge-ball! =:o} (Reply to this)

	__kali__ 2005-07-24 03:36 pm UTC (link)
	Ooh, very useful. (Reply to this)

	scarlettgirl 2005-08-02 09:57 pm UTC (link)
	Bless you. It always surprises me that people don't know this. Perhaps the finer points are tricksy, but the basics such as quotations and paragraph breaks you'd think people would pick up simply by reading fanfic. I'm adding to memories and linking whenever I see a promising writer writer butcher all conventions. (Reply to this)

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